Commonwealth Forums

Should our hosts deem it important to end the conference, we ask interested parties to join us in the Federal Republic of Cyberia with the purpose of continuing whatever discussions may be of interest.

http://p083.ezboard.com/bcyberia11672

In any event, we thank Hanover and HRM for the opportunity of beginning discussions. May the initial spirit of this event lead to greater peace and harmony in the Community at large.

Somehow I doubt that. Especially after what has been said in the Parliament of Hanover, in the debate on the Prime Ministers speech. The reason for the hiatus is now clear, a change of government to one which is, on the surface, completely isolationist. It regards micronationalism as not serious. It calls itself a nation and is against micronationalism. Well unless youve got soveriegn lands in the real world, and recognition of real world countries, youre a micronation. It regards other micronations as not serious. Well we were serious enough to attend the Bergan Conference and I wonder if those who espouse those views feel the same about the all the micronations of which they are a part. And given the support for the ideals shown by some, myself included, these comments made by the new government are insulting on both a professional and personal level to all who have attended in good faith.

That said, I thank Troy Thompson for his efforts in bringing the Conference into being, it was a brave and visionary effort. I wish him and Hanover well, and should they wish to, our forums will remain open to all Hanoverians who wish to maintain any dialogue.

The "real country" model works, but usually only if the country is a one-man-driven project. There is no "better" MN than the Republic of Molossia, where His Excellency President Berg(?) runs something special.

We are not formally "Signing out", as the motion is only a motion (so far). We shall observe quietly and await events.

Mr. President, Mr. Milisz:

Although I was not a participant of the Bergen Conference (neither would I have been), I did happen to follow it a bit and I wonder if you would, perhaps, allow me to introduce a few subtleties to the dialogue represented on this particular thread.

I believe the reason that the new government decided to withdraw from the conference was largely prompted by the recurring use of the term "hobby" which many of the delegates used to describe their nations, or other non-territorial nations, in general.

I know that the Kingdom of Hanover, like the Kingdom of Varennes, embraces the idea of actual nationhood. Having said that, we do realize that our nations are, in fact, micro-nations, on account of the sizes of our populations, regardless of whether or not we possess land or tangible structures.

But what we do eschew is the concept of "micronationalism", that is to say, forming a nation as a hobby, just for the fun of it. Our nations believe that they are whole and complete unto themselves. They were established as individual nations for their own sakes, and not for the purpose of becoming components of a "micronational" community.

Our nations do not recognize a separate "micronational" world and thus do not participate in hobby-oriented mapping organizations, for example.

Therefore, no offense need be taken. We just view ourselves in a different light.

Milord James,

First of all, let me again thank His Royal Majesty for his kindnesses during the conference, and Mr. Thompson for the most gracious invitiation.

I appreciate the desire for the

. The Kingdom of Talossa tried (and for all I know, still tries) to project this image. Our brothers of the United Provinces of East Cyberia and Penguinea both attempted similar models.

Now, please do not take this wrong. I respect the form and position that you are trying to take. I hope that you find pleasure and fulfillment consistant with your position.

However, should a penguin decide that it is an eagle, it is still a penguin. No matter how hard it flaps, it will not fly in the air. It can perhaps even don an eagle suit, complete with talons and a sharp beak. It may even learn to scream like an eagle. It might even attempt to kill and eat rabbits (should one fortuitously appear in it's presence), but it's system requires fish.

In the end, it will either revert to penguinlike behavoir and survive, or it will starve, in the end becoming an eagle suit full of dead penguin.

Now, of course, there are ways of leaping out of "reality". Our beloved Emperor Norton I of beloved memory was of that sort.

May you find the peace of a Norton rather than the fate of the confused penguin.

With fond regards I bid you Adieu.

Mr. President:

Unfortunately I have no idea what the hell you're talking about. Your post reads like a chapter from Watership Down.

What I merely meant to say was that our national communities are, for us, the point. Now granted in the case of Hanover and of Varennes, we'd like to see more growth to make our communities more dynamic and thereby giving a greater validity to the structures of our state.

That having been said, however, the type of person who would join one or the other of our nations is the type who wants to build up a national community with all the structures and styles and functions of a state.

The type of person who wants to join Hanover or Varennes will not be the type of person who wants to participate in a sim-nation, such as those communities which simulate the United States government and re-set their simulation every couple of years or so. These communities have members who are pretending to be the President of the United States or a senator or a congressman, what have you.

And then there are some people who want to pretend that they are a king, or an emperor or a president or a chief hobbit of their own country--a country which does not exist--and thereby derive enjoyment from their hobby. And they enjoy interacting with other folks with their own simulated countries who also are participants in that hobby.

The latter compose a community of hobbyists called the "micronational" community. And that isn't where Hanover fits in, or where Varennes fits in, or where the Empire of Ascalon fits in. We're not simulating or pretending a kingdom, we're being a kingdom. Granted, we're doing a pretty lousy job of growing, but we are faithfully replicating the structures of the state and we do regard ourselves to be what we say we are, whether we are king or viceroy or legislator or aristocrat or judge. &c. I am the Governor General of Varennes. I'm not pretending to be. And my neighbors and friends know that I am. They think I'm nuts, but then, they always thought so, so I don't care.

But look at the Ascalonian Empire, for example. They have literally hundreds of citizens, mostly living in one particular region. The bulk of all national activity is local, and these local communities act in person, not on-line. And the citizens of Ascalon regard themselves as "Ascalonians", not as "micronationalists". You see, they regard Ascalon as what they are a part of. They don't think of themselves as belonging to a wider "micronational" community, any more than Vatican City regards itself as belonging to the "micronational" community. The Empire of Ascalon may have a larger population than Vatican City, in fact. But my point is that for Ascalonians, Ascalon is the community, not "micronationalism". For the most part, they aren't at all concerned about interacting with "micronationalists". For the most part, they are oblivious to the existence of other micronations.

Take the former Royal Family of this nation--mine--the Marchmains. The Queen, the Duchess of Champagne, Prince David, Prince Sebastian...all realtives of mine. All joined because of me and not one of them was aware of a phenomenon called "micronationalism". They didn't know that there were other non-territorial nations out there. They weren't interested. They're focus was this one. They took joy in participating in a kingdom, not in participating in a larger, "micronational community", something they were oblivious to.

I guess you'd say it's like a gambler playing poker with friends. He's doing it because he likes to play poker, not in order to be a part of the "gambling community". He's a poker player, not a "gamblist".

And that's the way Hanover thinks. It's not isolationist from the world. Not at all. The true isolationism is practiced by "micronationalists" who form a world separate from the world which already exists, if you ask me. But then again, communities like that exist for a different reason.

The bottom line is that the Bergen Conference--such as it was--wound up clumsily bringing apples and oranges to the table, resulting in nothing at all and a few hurt feelings. I think the whole thing was simply ill-conceived.

But it isn't that we don't value communities with a different paradigm. We do. We merely mean to say that we are not oranges like them, but apples.

Sir,

This really isnt doing much good to Hanover-Adraisia relations, or indeed Hanover's relations with the outside world.

Please, go ahead and start your own independent nation, just don't involve us.







Oh, and have the dignity to say goodbye to your guests.

Hanover is an independent nation, I'm from Varennes, not Hanover, and you aren't my guests.

I've never heard of "Adraisia" (but I think she waited on me at McDonald's yesterday) and have no idea why my last post--inoffensive and levelheaded as it was--should affect Hanover's relationship with the outside world.

Now, if by "outside world" you mean not the people of the planet earth but the hobby "micronationalism", then you haven't read a word I've written. You have no business getting offended by words if you cannot read them.

Hanover does not consider an alternate "outside world" made up of "micronations" the way you do. Hanover recognizes the "outside world" that the "outside world" recognizes. And I don't see England or China or Sweden getting upset with Hanover.

Dear Mr. Tomsett,

The point that His Grace is making is that they now longer recognize our existances as peers to Hanover. The will attempt this model of nationhood, and they will succeeed (improbable), implode (most likely) or revert to their previous model (possible).

This is a function if the internal politics of Hanover. the best thing to do is leave them to their own devices, and accept any refugees that might result.

The Union of Anglia seems improbable, but other possiblilties for association still exist.

I now log out of what was a noble idea for the last time. May we all find that which we seek.

Actually, what I meant was what I wrote, not what you misinterpreted.

To clarify:

1. I do not represent or speak for Hanover.

2. I've identified no particular nation as being diplomatically incompatible with the Kingdom of Hanover; not yours, neither any other.

3. The Kingdom of Hanover has existed according to the same "model" for five years now and hasn't sunk yet. How long have you been around?

4. I'm an "excellency", not a "grace". As you will surely agree, "grace" isn't my forte.

5. Stop being so goddamn sensitive.