The Forums of Glennain

I welcome Mr Mcqueeny's bill to once again establish something resembling executive government beyond the King in the Kingdom of Hanover.

I feel I must comment on the final section of Mr Livingston's bill.

Quote:Section 5: Government Responsibility

a. The Government shall elect one of its members to serve as Premier; the Government or the King may dismiss the Premier at any time.
b. The Premier shall hold no special power over the actions of the Government, and shall act only as a spokesman and representative to the King and the people.
c. At least once each month, subject to the King's will, the Premier shall deliver a brief address to Parliament summarising the acts of the Government during that month, and its plans for the months to come.
d. The Premier shall be obliged to fully and truthfully answer any questions publicly posed to him in Parliament, unless the King is satisfied that to do so would gravely compromise national security.

What exactly is this 'Premier' figure? He is clearly not the King's premier minister, he is not the first amongst equals, he is not the leader of the government, merely the public face.

Is he meant to serve as some kind of public accountability mechanism?

Effectively the government under this proposal can answer the questions it wants, in the manner it wants.

He is not accountable to the parliament, there is no measure to remove a minister should they lie to the parliament, so why pretend there is by including this clause at all?

And why have only one minister who can be called to answer questions before the parliament?

I would propose that if the goal is accountability, then the ministers must be accountable to the government. If the goal is communication, then surely all ministers should be availible to answer the questions of the parliament?

If the goal of communication is to allow the parliament to make informed decisions, then surely it is in no ones interest to have the parliament unable to ask certain questions?

If this is just the King appointing a few advisers, why have a bill at all?

See Section 4...

Premier would be would be one of the Great Officers of State, while the Government would be all of the Great Officers of State...

Since the Great Officers of State serve solely at His Majesty's pleasure, Parliamentary oversight is thus elliminated...

Yeah, I'm not the biggest fan of it either, but...the Tories hold the plurality...if ya don't like it, come to the Whigs!

Gentlemen,

The Bill was written as it was quite simply because, when I pushed for a revived Premiership a few months ago, it failed completely. I don't want to waste the Parliament's time with proposals that I'm almost certain would be voted down, although obviously not by yourselves.

If it was up to me, we would have a Prime Minister and Government exactly like that we had under the Gresham Constitution. As it stands now, however, this is as much as I think I can pass; some degree of parliamentary responsibility is better than the complete lack we have now, is it not?

Sincerely,

Christopher D. Livingston

Mr. Livingston, Ladies and Gentlemen:

Following Mr. Livingston's proposed "Executive Governance" Bill, I feel somewhat like a comic coming on stage to find that the previous act has already used my material. The delivery was different, but the joke was essentially the same: the Great Officers of State.

Well, prior to the summoning of this Parliament, I had been in the process of drafting a proclamation constituting the Great Officers which was nearly complete when Mr. Livingston beat me to the punchline. My draft includes all the traditional Officers, save a Lord High Steward. In consultation with the Crown, I determined not to include it on account of the sheer redundancy of the office with that of King.

The King is the great Steward of the Realm, and since we have no land, the King can never really be said to be absent, neither his realm defenseless. But Counsellors of State are the more correct officers to "hold down the fort" when the King cannot attend to his duties for a relatively long period of time. So the Lord High Steward was best left in England, I thought; part of their legendary history, not of ours. The other Officers I retained, most of which can have practical tasks assigned to them.

Mr. Livingston: your Bill makes the Lord High Treasurer (if the Office were in Commission it would be the "First Lord of the Treasury" we'd be speaking of, which will help to shine the light on the matter for some) the King's adviser with respect to domestic affairs. In essence, he's more or less the Home Secretary, but since so much falls under his purvue, he really becomes the Prime Minister, elections to the office "premier" notwithstanding. The Lord High Treasurer will end up, someday, requiring Secretaries of State to deal with a variety of portfolios pertaining to domestic issues.

My proposal goes one step further and essentially makes the Lord High Treasurer (or the First Lord of the Treasury, should the Office go into commission) the prime minister, without calling him "prime minister". Well, why not just call him the "prime minister", you might ask? Well, I suppose it really has more to do with tradition than anything else. We all might very well become used to calling the Lord Treasurer (or First Lord) "Prime Minister", just as they do in the United Kingdom, that's up to us, I suppose. But the office to which the incumbent is actually appointed should be (in our case) that of Lord High Treasurer.

In my proposal, the Lord High Treasurer determines--just as a Prime Minister would--the portfolios of the government, with the exception, of course, of those members sitting ex-officio, such as the Lord High Admiral and Lord Chancellor, whose portfolios are determined by the very nature of their offices.

With respect to Mr. Livingston, I think that this is a better plan than what his Bill offers. This proposal allows the traditional Great Officers (excepting only one) to continue or to be constituted and allows them to perform their traditional roles. Perhaps more importantly, it provides for a more authentic prime minister who is able to organize the portfolios of all ministers tendering advice to the Crown, except the ex-officio members. Even with respect to ex-officios, however, the PM may tender advice on appointments to those offices (and removals therefrom, for that matter). How much influence a PM's advice has upon the Crown will depend upon a number of factors of course, but that's a discussion for another day.

Well, without further ado, I give you the draft of my proposal for constituting the Great Officers. Bear in mind this was originally crafted as a Proclamation. It would need to be re-worded as an Act, of course. Also bear in mind that I have yet to write-up the stuff of the duties of the Lord High Admiral and Constable and so those headings are followed by nothingness at the moment:

Quote:BY THE KING



A PROCLAMATION



ALEXANDER R.



ALEXANDER by the Grace of God of Hanover and Varennes King, Supreme Governor of the Church of Hanover, Defender of the Faith to All Our Loving Subjects Whatsoever to Whom these Presents shall come, GREETING:



Whereas Our Right Trusty Lords, Councillors and others of Our Beloved Subjects assembled at Our Conference for Constitutional Reform in Our County of Emden have deliberated at length at Our command with respect to divers matters pertaining to the reformation, constitution and re-constitution of the various Offices and Institutions of the State of Our Great Kingdom of Hanover,



And whereas following their exhaustive deliberations with respect to such divers matters concerning the reformation, constitution and re-constitution of the various Offices and Institutions of the State of Our Great Kingdom of Hanover they have concluded that it is generally meet and to the advantage of the State of Our Great Kingdom of Hanover that the Great Officers of State of Our Great Kingdom of Hanover be constituted or re-constituted, as the case may be,



And whereas We have heard the petitions in this regard of Our Right Trusty Lords, Councillors and others of Our Beloved Subjects assembled at Our Conference for Constitutional Reform in Our County of Emden and have determined that Our own opinions are in harmonious accord with the recommendations which have been loyally and dutifully presented to Us,



LET IT BE KNOWN that it is now Our Will and Pleasure to declare, ordain and constitute by this instrument all of the Great Officers of State of Our Great Kingdom of Hanover:



I.                     PRELIMINARY



1.        This Proclamation shall be cited as the Constitutional Proclamation of the Great Officers of State of the Kingdom of Hanover, 2006.

2.        This Proclamation shall supersede any and all extant documents whatsoever pertaining to any or all of the Great Officers of State of the Kingdom of Hanover.

3.        This Proclamation shall come into force upon being gazetted.



II.                   ORDER OF PRECEDENCE



The Great Officers of State shall be and shall rank in precedence as follows:



1.        The Lord High Chancellor

2.        The Lord High Treasurer

3.        The Lord President of the Council

4.        The Lord Privy Seal

5.        The Lord Great Chamberlain

6.        The Earl Marshall

7.        The Lord High Constable

8.        The Lord High Admiral



III.                 THE LORD HIGH CHANCELLOR



1.        The Lord High Chancellor shall be the Keeper of the Great Seal of the Kingdom of Hanover and shall be responsible for passing under the Great Seal all instruments whatsoever are to be passed under the Great Seal.

2.        The Lord High Chancellor shall be, ex-officio, a member of His Majesty’s Most Honourable the Privy Council.

3.        The Lord High Chancellor shall be, ex-officio, a member of the Cabinet. As such, he shall be answerable to Parliament.

4.        The Lord High Chancellor shall enjoy general superintendence over the judiciary of the Realm and shall ensure the efficient functioning of and the independence of the courts. He shall nominate all judicial candidates and shall give advice regarding all matters pertaining to the judiciary.

5.        The Lord High Chancellor shall preside whenever the King-in-Parliament or the King-in-Council are appealed to according to law.

6.        The Lord High Chancellor shall be eligible to to preside over any court in the absence of a judge.

7.        The Lord High Chancellor shall enjoy a seat and a vote in Parliament whenever Parliament shall sit.

8.        The Lord High Chancellor shall be the Keeper of the Royal Conscience, assuming the Sovereign’s responsibilities over those of His subjects unable to help themselves.

9.        The Lord High Chancellor shall be the general guardian of all infants, idiots and lunatics and has the general superintendence of all charitable uses in the Realm. He shall have the discretion to cause such subjects of His Majesty and others as prescribed by law to become wards in Chancery, under his direct protection.

10.     The Lord High Chancellor shall be Visitor, in right of the Sovereign, of all hospitals and colleges of the Sovereign’s foundation, and patron of all the Sovereign’s livings.  He may be empowered by the governing bodies of such institutions and organizations of which he is Visitor to appoint members thereto.

11.     The Lord High Chancellor shall be patron of any and all ecclesiastical livings as the Sovereign shall direct.

12.     The Lord High Chancellor shall be, ex-officio, a member of any Commission appointed by the Sovereign or by Parliament to manage the assets and resources of the Church of Hanover.

13.     A Lord Keeper of the Great Seal may, at the discretion of the Sovereign, be appointed instead of a Lord High Chancellor. A Lord Keeper shall enjoy all the duties and responsibilities of a Lord High Chancellor herein enumerated and shall further enjoy all the rights, privileges, pre-eminences, emoluments and immunities of a Lord High Chancellor.

14.     The Office of the Lord High Chancellor may be exercised by a committee of Lords Commissioners of the Great Seal at the discretion of the Sovereign.



IV.                 THE LORD HIGH TREASURER



1.        The Lord High Treasurer shall have charge over His Majesty’s Treasury.

2.        The Lord High Treasurer shall be a member of the cabinet, ex-officio, and shall be Secretary of State for His Majesty’s Treasury. He shall be answerable to Parliament as such.

3.        The Lord High Treasurer shall determine the various portfolios of the Cabinet and shall recommend to the Sovereign appointments to all Ministries of the Crown.

4.        The Lord High Treasurer shall have responsibility for determining the policies of His Majesty’s Government and shall, for this purpose, consult and advise the Sovereign.

5.        The Lord High Treasurer shall enjoy a seat and a vote in Parliament whenever Parliament shall sit.

6.        The Lord High Treasurer shall have personal charge over, or shall recommend to the Sovereign the appointment of a Chancellor of the Exchequer to have charge over, all matters of Public Finance and of the Budget of the Government.

7.        The Office of Lord High Treasurer may be exercised by a committee of Lords Commissioners of the Treasury at the Sovereign’s discretion.

8.        Whenever the Office of Lord High Treasurer is exercised by a committee of Lords Commissioners, that committee shall be presided over by a “First Lord of the Treasury” who shall determine the portfolios of the Cabinet and the policies of His Majesty’s Government in consultation with the Sovereign. The First Lord of the Treasury shall enjoy a seat and a vote in Parliament whenever Parliament shall sit and shall be answerable to Parliament.

9.        Whenever the Office of Lord High Treasurer is exercised by a committee of Lords Commissioners, the Chancellor of the Exchequer shall be the “Second Lord of the Treasury”.



V.                   THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL



1.        The Lord President of the Council shall preside over all meetings of the Privy Council and shall be responsible for the publication of all Orders-in-Council.

2.        The Lord President of the Council shall ensure that all proposals in Council are duly moved and presented to the Sovereign for his formal assent.

3.        The Lord President of the Council shall be a member of the Cabinet, ex-officio. His Portfolio shall be assigned to him by the Lord High Treasurer or the First Lord of the Treasury

4.        The Lord President of the Council shall have a seat and a vote in Parliament whenever Parliament shall sit.

5.        The Lord President of the Council shall hold the office of Leader of Parliament, ex-officio.



VI.                 THE LORD PRIVY SEAL



1.        The Lord Privy Seal shall be the Keeper of the King’s Privy Seal.

2.        The Lord Privy Seal shall be a member of the Cabinet, ex-officio. He shall have no Portfolio.



VII.               THE LORD GREAT CHAMBERLAIN



1.        The Lord Great Chamberlain shall be the Governor of the Palace of Huntington and the Bearer of the Sword of State at all state openings and closings of Parliament. He shall be responsible for ensuring the security of the meeting place of Parliament and for the supervision of all officers that may be appointed to assist him in that regard.

2.        The Lord Great Chamberlain shall have the right to dress the Sovereign on his coronation day and to serve the Sovereign water before and after the coronation banquet. He shall assist at investing the Sovereign with the insignia of rule.

3.        The Lord Great Chamberlain shall enjoy general superintendence over the Royal Household and all appointments to offices thereof.





VIII.             THE EARL MARSHAL



1.        The Earl Marshal shall be the head of the College of Arms and shall have ultimate authority over all matters pertaining to heraldry and chivalry.

2.        The Earl Marshal shall preside over the Court of Chivalry and shall have power to order, judge, and determine all matters touching arms, ensigns of nobility, honour, and chivalry; to make laws, ordinances, and statutes for the good government of Officers of Arms; to nominate Officers to fill vacancies in the College of Arms; to punish and correct Officers of Arms for misbehaviour in the execution of their places, and to rule over all disputes concerning the misuse of armorial bearings.

3.        No patents of arms or any ensigns of nobility shall be granted and no augmentation, alteration or addition shall be made to arms without the consent of the Earl Marshal.

4.        The Earl Marshal shall be responsible for the organization and supervision of all Royal Ceremonies, including the Coronation of the Monarch and the State Opening of Parliament.



IX.                THE LORD HIGH CONSTABLE



X.            THE LORD HIGH ADMIRAL

THE LIBERAL PARTY
Renewing Hanover's Promise.

My Lord,

I must say that it is unfortunate that His Majesty didn't mention this work-in-progress Proclamation on any of the several occasions when I discussed the Executive Governance Bill with him; certainly, since I like your proposal in many respects, it would have saved some time and effort. I do worry, however, that your proposal would introduce a level of complexity that would be inadvisable in our current situation. The two-layer system of Great Officers also being Secretaries of State, for instance, seems unnecessary to me.

Also, in the near future at least, we simply will not have more than two or three active ministers*, and hence the difference between our proposals will lessen: there would be the Lord Chancellor and the Lord Treasurer for sure, and the Lord President is the most important of the remaining officers, so that position would likely be filled as well. So, we would likely end up with the same three officers I proposed, and I'd even bet that the portfolios would be distributed in the same way that I proposed. In short, I think what you're proposing only differs in how strong the Prime Minister figure is; as I mentioned before, I personally want a strong Prime Minister anyway, but didn't include it in order to compromise.

Sincerely,

Christopher D. Livingston

*You, Prince Justin, and Mr. Thompson. I wouldn't accept a Government portfolio were it offered, and if I recall correctly Mr. Portela isn't interested either.

Mr. Livingston:

You may be right about current conditions, but I can't think soley in terms of what exists today. I propose this as I propose everything: with a view to tomorrow. The fact that we cannot currently staff all of the Great Offices doesn't mean that they ought not to be created. Of course they ought to.

I don't know what you discussed with His Majesty, but I wonder if we have two different Kings, because in my discussions with His Majesty of late, he has desired that the Great Officers be constituted. We did discuss this document, as you say, and I've been crafting it with a green light from the palace.

At any rate, Mr. Livingston, I'm sure that whatever the majority agrees to in Parliament will be assented to by His Majesty. I wonder if there isn't someway in which we might compromise to ensure the passage of a Bill which will satisfy all members...and both kings.

<_<

Okay, now, this i just the friggin theatre of the absurd.

Well, I'm inclined to concur, Mr. McIntyre. There is an unwritten constitutional principle that the Sovereign takes his advice from his ministers, not from ordinary subjects. I'm not sure what's going on but it does seem to show a vote of no confidence from the Crown in his current ministry.

It may be that we would do well to take the unwritten principle and write it down.

Your Royal Highness,

I never said that I was advising His Majesty on the matter. The conversations referred to are something I have done for every Bill I have ever written in Hanover: explain it to His Majesty, ask what he thinks, incorporate his suggestions, etc., and of course find out whether he would give it Royal Assent. If anything, His Majesty was advising me.

Sincerely,

Christopher D. Livingston

Mr. Livingston:

My remarks were not critical of your actions, rest assured. If a subject can gain the ear of the Sovereign and consult with him on matters of government, then he should take advantage of it, as I would if I were in your position.

What I take issue with is the idea that the Sovereign's ear can be gained outside of his government on official matters. That His Majesty was advising you with respect to crafting legislation pertaining to the structure of the government is my issue, I suppose. His government knew nothing about it.