11-29-2003, 07:40 AM
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Duke of Marchmain
Member
Posts: 3
(11/17/03 11:49 pm)
AN URGENT APPEAL
[color=black;font-family:courier;font-size:x-small;]Beloved friends and fellow Hanoverians:
As all of you know, the Parliament of Hanover is currently voting on whether or not to present the Kingdom of Hanover as a gift to King Vincent III of Morovia.
I have been asked to lend my support to a merger between Hanover and Morovia, a goal which I hoped to achieve during my own reign. I do support a union between these two venerable nations but in a way which makes sense.
My dear, dear friends! This is not the way to go about this enterprise. Are you really willing to minimize everything that Hanover is and can be, reducing it to a mere gift to present to an irresponsible foreign ruler? Come now.
I do support this union, Your Majesty. I do support this union, dear friends. But there is a much, much more sensible and honourable way for this nation to go about it and I beg you to hear me out before you make a decision.
Any of you who have not visited and participated in the thread regarding this merger at Micronations.net ought to do so (see link in Ellicott Square topics). A very reasonable and exciting solution to this matter has arisen, and I hope that you will give it your consideration before simply giving your nation away.
This obvious and intriguing solution calls for a dual-monarchy presiding over a new kingdom with a hyphenated name reflecting both Hanover and Morovia. The Kingdom of "Morovia-Hanover" would have two co-equal kings, Vincent III of Morovia and a qualified (non-Morovian) Hanoverian king.
Such a scenario, of course, has historical macronational precedence, having been seen during the reigns of Ferdinand and Isabella in Spain and William and Mary in Great Britain. The fact that those monarchs married was accidental and no one is proposing a "marriage" between the two monarchs (unless that's what they want, of course <!--EZCODE EMOTICON START
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).
This solution will allay any fears about Vincent III simply vanishing again, allowing the other King to continue governing regardless of Vincent's presence or absence. Should Vincent agree to such a compromise, it will also show that he is truly committed to creating a great nation and that he has not just returned to satisfy a transitory personal whim to be "the king" again.
My dear, dear friends, although I have departed Hanover's throne I continue to love Hanover and all that she has come to stand for. I also continue to love Morovia and all that she has stood for in her better years. If I did not love our country I would not take the time to appeal to you in this way. "I could not love thee half so well. Love thee not honor more?"
A merger, yes. Yes, by all means, Your Majesty. A union between these two great nations, yes, dear members of Parliament! But a unification which makes sense, carried out in an honorable fashion, one in which the members of both nations can be proud.
Your Majesty, I hope you will forgive me, but the way in which this merger is being designed is beyond unpalatable. Perhaps even if Mr. Krembs had been muzzled, I could have held back. His unpardonably arrogant remarks about Hanover, however, reveal to me the true spirit behind Morovia's desire for this merger: "Morovia above all, and a blue-eyed Jesus! Morovia first and the rest get the pieces!" (with apologies to Moxy Fruvous for the paraphrased lyrics). In the face of that attitude revealed for all to see, I cannot maintain my silence. Again I hope you will forgive me and see my efforts, at least, in finding a way in which I can support the merger which you hope to accomplish, as I, myself, had hoped to long ago.
I have discovered a way in which I can support this merger rather than lament it. I offer my support to the merger, as you have asked me to, if the merger is executed in a just way. Have mercy upon this nation, My lord. Do not offer her merely as a gift to one who does not deserve her. Make this unification happen, but make it happen right. I appeal to you at the foot of your throne, make it happen right.
Louis,
Duke of Marchmain[/color]
Edited by: Duke of Marchmain at: 11/18/03 1:08 am
Thomas G C
HM King Thomas I
Posts: 763
(11/18/03 5:37 pm)
Re: AN URGENT APPEAL
My Dear Duke,
Before we begin any discussion, I ask you to disregard the comments of Mr Krembs. They are irrelevant, as far as we should be concerned, since Mr Krembs' only involvement in this affair will be to vote on it in Morovia's Royal Assembly. I assure you, my lord, that Hanover has her own equivalents.
Now, that out of the way, I have a question for you. What is it that makes the union, as proposed to Parliament, so distasteful to you? If you review the content of the Bill, you will note that in fact, it does not at all subjugate or belittle Hanover. The Bill is designed to create a new, merged and unified Kingdom from both Morovia and Hanover.
In addition to which, Hanover will maintain the integrity of her borders, and her laws will continue to apply within those borders. Hanoverian nobles will still be nobles in Hanover. When size permits, Hanover will have a Parliament, and will, in fact, be to all intents and purposes as she now is. Until size does permit, a Hanoverian administrator will rule the Hanoverian territory, as I now do.
Perhaps you find the idea that the supreme law of the new, unified state will be the People's Constitution of Morovia unpalatable? That is a document and a law which has worked admirably in every way, except one - and every Morovian, including King Vincent, is ready to amend that. Whereas in Hanover, with merger or without we will have a new Constitution. Why not take up one which has served a nation for many years, with the necessary change, which will be made within the week?
Perhaps, you find distasteful the idea that the Kingdom will be named Morovia? It was Your Grace yoursef who lobbied your own Council to change Hanover's name, and none will deny that the name of Morovia is held in esteem throughout the micronational community. Surely, then, Hanover has the benefit of taking on that esteem, and loses nothing?
And finally, you may dislike the proposal that King Vincent rule the new union. Well, let's look at the whole list of candidates for rule - bearing in mind that wherever history has witnessed two or more male monarchs rule side by side, their state has crumbled into civil war, and also that comparison can hardly be made with partnerships of male and female, since in every case, the environment of the situation will make the male the supreme authority:
There is firstly myself. Without wishing to be too self-deprecating, I am hardly well qualified as a national leader. In the two cases where I have enjoyed that honour previously, I presided over the fall of Seventh Audentior, for which I accept substantial responsibility, and over the destruction of Freenesia by enemy attack. Not a good record. In Hanover, I hope to make my rule count, by making my kingdom part of a grand new venture of partnership.
Then there is the Marchmain family. I have no particular wish to try to savage either Your Grace or His Royal Highness Prince Justin, but neither of you have a reserve for monarchy like King Vincent's.
He has made mistakes, and he has been absent (who would begrudge him leaving Morovia a while to support the Democratic Party's efforts to oppose George W?), but he has pledged - and I believe him - to rectify them. With the new revisions to the Constitution in Morovia, Vincent's best traits will be enhanced through his role, his worst ones made irrelevant.
The respect and prestige he commands throughout the community will make him an ideal figurehead of our community - he compares, in this respect, with the most legendary leaders of our regions history - and his political skill, honed in the macronational arena, will lend stability and strong guidance to Morovia's government. His tendency towards absnece in recent months, on the other hand, though he has pledged to refrain from it, will never again be a crippling blow to Morovia - nor would they be to the new union - when the proposed reforms are made.
Vincent is the best King for our community. There are many great leaders among us - from Morovia's Lord regent-emeritus Bill Bekkenhuis to Hanover's esteemed Prime Minister Lord Gottingen, and yourself also, Your Grace - who can lead our new union, should it come about, to glory from the political front line, but it's a man like Vincent who will be a great king.
In summation, it is my firm belief that, having addressed all your potential qualms that I can see, the new union of Morovia and Hanover will benefit my loyal subjects of Hanover. Indeed, they could easily come to form a majority among the voters of the union. Hanover will not be merely a province of a Morovian 'empire', but an integral and powerful section of a grand union of nations.
komoriSan
C.Braden,
Director of
Online Services
Posts: 481
(11/18/03 7:10 pm)
Re: AN URGENT APPEAL
Your Majesty King Thomas I,
King Louis,
Fellow Hanoverians,
Guests of Hanover,
My opposition to any merger is founded on two simple principles:
1) I'm Hanoverian. I have never been Morovian. I see no benefit to be becoming Morovian (at least at the moment). I do not wish to hold any back that feel they would do better in Morovia. But your immigrating to Morovia does not require the death of Hanover.
2) His Majesty King Vincent III has a track record of unreliablity. Even he admits the weakness. Maybe he does have more commitment this time. I say let Hanover use caution with a wait and see approach.
There should be no sense of urgency to this whole proceeding. I don't understand the rush to unificiation. We can always pass Articles of Unification, but unpassing them is very difficult.
King Thomas points out that his Majesty King Vincent III left for macronational issues. Issues I'm sorry to report are unfinished. In less than a year the election for the US Presidency will start again. Will his Majesty King Vincent III be unable to resist the calling of macronational politics yet again?
I immigrated to Hanover because I liked what I saw. I stayed when his Majesty King James I abdicated because I believed in the potential. For me the vision and life is here, in Hanover.
Don't believe me?
On 2003-NOV-12 his Majesty King Vincent III posted his now famous "Friends, I have returned." message. From that time on, this has been the traffic that I could measure in the Salon. I interpret the number of posts to be a measure of the vitality of the nation.
Aderyn Evereste 1 **
Bill Bekkenhuis 7 *
komoriSan 1 *
Lord Williams 1 *
His Majesty King Vincent III 3
Rakesh86 1 *
Frederick Giles 2
Tahmaseb Shah 1 **
HIH Noseworthy 1 **
derSystemanalytiker 6
His Majesty King Thomas I 3 *
Robert LS Kee 1
SteveFoong 2 *
Knight Magistrate 1 *
The posters with the * are those with Hanoverian citizenship, they total 6, 7 if we count Aderyn (but I won't). The posters with ** are neither Hanoverian nor Morovian, they total 3. Morovians total 3 pure morovians, 6 multinationals, 7 if you again count Aderyn (right?).
The numerical analysis points out the plain fact of the matter. Their are more involved Hanoverians than Morovians.
If you total the posts by citizenship and you get this:
Hanover 10
Morovia 12
Other 3
Its plain to see that His Majesty King Vincent III is inspiring, at least for the moment. But it's also plain to see that if those that are Hanoverian were putting nearly as much energy into Hanover as they are into Morovia then Morovia would still look like a ghost town by comparison.
I have maintained all along that if you feel Morovia is a better place for you, then please immigrate and don't worry about it, you'll still be welcome in Hanover as far as I'm concerned.
But what I don't understand is the move to just drop everything and go bow at the thrown of Morovia. I'm not going to do it.
I'm staying in Hanover as long as there is a Hanover to stay in.
Regards,
Char-Lez Braden
Citizen
pardek
D.Dreesbach,
Citizen
Posts: 163
(11/18/03 8:34 pm)
Re: AN URGENT APPEAL
If the merger is to go why is it that Hannover will lose its independence and its king. Why cant we set it up similiar to the EU
SteveFoong
Minister of State
Posts: 423
(11/18/03 8:56 pm)
Re: AN URGENT APPEAL
The thing I treasure the most about micronationalism is that it is all a matter of choice. I did not choose my macronationality. I was born into a race and into a country, jus soli. Micronationality, however, can neither be imposed nor disliked. I cannot say that I hate to be a Morovian or that I hate to be a Hanoverian. I also cannot claim to be forced into these two micronations. I chose to. I can simply go off and never to visit these two micronations' ezboard forever. But I chose to.
Therefore, no one can force a person to be a Morovian or a Hanoverian. One can oppose but one need not resist. If a merger is successful and one doesn't like the merger, he can simply leave it to rot. If a merger is unsuccessful and one doesn't like a merger, he can simply ignore it. There's really nothing more to it.
Of course, there's this thing called emotion. The Duke of Marchmain may say, "I crafted Hanover with my bare hands. Killing it? Over my dead body!" Of course we're not talking about culling Hanover. Perhaps he may say, "But I, being its creator, love Hanover way too much to see it being made part of a nation I consider gold-gilded and headed by a King I utterly despise". Another may say, "I was never a Morovian and have no love for it. I'm a Hanoverian - thoroughbred!" Emotion is real and must be acknowledged.
Therefore, there is no way one can really conspire to merge with another micronation without the members of both micronations agreeing. And, in the context of micronationalism, there's simply no reason to merge with a micronation's structure without its citizens.
Hence, may I suggest that there's really no need for an urgent appeal, or a "Save Hanover Campaign". If no citizen of Hanover wants to be a Morovian, Morovia will gain nothing and will have to live with it. Even if it finally wins over "The Kingdom of Hanover", without it citizens, it still achieved nothing. There's simply no compelling in micronationalism.
I know emotions are high at this moment but we should calm down somewhat and let due process take its course. For Morovia and Hanover were never enemies and should not be. The intention of a merger is not to create hostility. Hostile takeover in micronationalism does not exist, except in the event of mass paplism. No, dear friends, there's no compelling in micronationalism.
I, personally and honestly, do not see a big hoo-hah about this whole issue. Let things happen in both legislatures and see how it goes.
HM King Vincent III
Member
Posts: 2
(11/18/03 10:24 pm)
Re: AN URGENT APPEAL
KINGDOM OF MOROVIA
HIS MAJESTY, KING VINCENT III
THE WINTER PALACE, BRIESK
HIS MAJESTY'S CHAMBERS
Steve,
I could not agree with your sentiments more. While the position of my Government has been said to be otherwise, I will once again express our utmost desire to respect the wishes of the Hanoverian and Morovian peoples.
Warm wishes to you all,
HM King Vincent III
komoriSan
C.Braden,
Director of
Online Services
Posts: 483
(11/18/03 11:11 pm)
Re: AN URGENT APPEAL
Your Majesty,
This is akin to a state visit! As a representative of his Majesty's government, WELCOME! I believe I speak for his Majesty when I say that you are always invited to grace us with your presence.
Thanks for taking the time to comment on the issue.
My views on this subject are well known. I don't intend to debate them here. Rather, I hope to address something else which you may have also noticed.
I feel an US-vs-THEM atmosphere forming. Hanover and Morovia have been traditional allies from the moment Hanover was created, by a group of Morovians!
Worse, the US-vs-THEM phenomena is extending beyond the two nations. Folks in Pendronia, Lavalon, Babkha and I suspect other nations as well, are all a buzz watching the process, and choosing sides. The process is starting to get personal. People have attacked each other, and not kept themselves to a civilized tone of discussing the idea.
Whatever the fate of Hanover, I don't want to give the impression that our Morovian friends are not welcome. I would also hope that, if the unification is rejected, that no bitterness is felt on the Morovian side.
While we may not agree on the merge, we can agree to continue civilized and friendly interactions. After all, during the course of any relationship disagreements are bound to happen, and the test of that bond is how they come through it.
I do not know any in Hanover that wish to see their personal relationships with any in Morovia damaged because we could not agree on this one issue.
Regards,
Char-Lez Braden
Prime Minister
Edited by: komoriSan at: 11/18/03 11:24 pm
Bill Bekkenhuis
Member
Posts: 261
(11/18/03 11:32 pm)
Re: AN URGENT APPEAL
But what I don't understand is the move to just drop everything and go bow at the thrown of Morovia. I'm not going to do it.
Most if not all Morovians understand Hanover's pride in its accomplishments and would certainly understand if you desired to remain independent.
I wish, though, the "bowing at the throne" phrase could be ditched.
On more than one occasion, the Crown of Hanover approached me in my capacity as Lord Regent of Morovia and offered the possibility of a union between our two nations.
If there were any specifics of those offers that differed from what's on the table now (other than the direction of the union), I don't recall them.
It was understood (at least by me) that Morovia would become a province of Hanover.
I did not think that was a good deal for Morovia, as many of you don't believe this is a good deal for Hanover. More significantly, I did not see the decision as one that had to be made immediately as I had every expectation HM King Vincent III would return.
It certainly would not have gained ME, personally, anything as I was already a Hanoverian citizen - almost from the very beginning.
So all I'd suggest is that Morovia didn't understand itself as being asked to bow down before the throne of Hanover when the matter was first discussed.
And, unless one believes Morovia WAS being asked to bow down and I was just too dumb to know it, then Hanover should not take offense at an offer from Morovia so similar to the offer HANOVER first made to Morovia.
I'm all talked out on this matter (and THAT doesn't happen often :-), so I will wait - in my parallel interests as a Morovian and a Hanoverian - for the outcome of Hanover's parliamentary decision.
Regards,
Bill Bekkenhuis
bekkenhuis@fast.net
HM King Louis 
Member
Posts: 5
(11/18/03 11:35 pm)
ezSupporter
Re: AN URGENT APPEAL
Your Majesty, King Thomas:
I have emailed you the totality of my thoughts regarding this matter and I hope that you will take my message to heart. I will permit myself to respond to your post, however.
Not to sound petty at all, but we have always insisted upon correctness in this nation and usage of the proper forms of address and respect to one another. Just as a former president is addressed as "Mr. President" throughout his life, a fomer king or queen is addressed as "Your Majesty," particularly if that former monarch continues to be king or queen of another nation. Let us hold fast to our tradition of propriety.
Oh, my God! Where do I begin?
What I find distasteful about the bill, Your Majesty, should be plainly obvious by now. The bill, regardless of what you have said, entirely subjugates Hanover and makes her a mere subsidiary dependency of Morovia. Hanover's monarchy vanishes. Hanover's name vanishes. Hanover's identity vanishes. The entire substance of Hanover is swallowed by the Kingdom of Morovia.
There is nothing fair in this bill at all. Hanover is treated as if it were she who had languished dead these past 12 months and as if it were Morovia who were coming to her rescue, to save her from oblivion. Everyone in the micronational world knows that the exact opposite is true! The absurdity of the backwardness of this bill is glaring. How can her King stomach such an insulting arrangement, much less endorse and actively promote it?
If this bill were fair, it would be turned inside-out to reflect the reality of the situation. That would be the truly just thing to do in light of everything. Even the compromise which I have proposed isn't strictly speaking fair to Hanover as it treats Morovia as a deserving co-equal partner, whereas it is a chonically ill nation and Hanover a thriving one (or at least it had been prior to so many citizens not originally from Morovia throwing their hands in the air in disgust and walking away). Therefore not even a treaty making both nations equal would be fair to Hanover, in the strict sense. But such a bill, at least, would be a reasonable compromise for Hanover to make.
Yes, it is unpalatable to me. That constitution was a monstrosity which always caused more problems than it solved. I can't believe how short-lived your memory appears to be on this. Vincent's proposed solution: transfer all executive authority to the People's Rep. Great. Marvelous. In that case why even have a king? His solution is to constitutionally cement his right to do absolutely nothing and still be king.
That was never the type of monarchy we had in Hanover, my Lord. We have always had an active king who performed his duties and then some, regardless of what you think about my talents as a king and my ability to serve as one. I never disappeared for months at a time. I never had a communication problem with my ministers or with parliament. I never refused to answer your emails. I even chatted with my people!
Well, yup. Quite definitely I find that distasteful. It should be called by its own name or at least by a hyphenated name. I even suggested that Morovia's be placed first by way of placating them. Indeed, it is true I was for a long time uncomfortable with Hanover's name, and that, as you know, is because there exists a man in this world--a very wealthy and powerful man--who already lays claim to the title "King of Hanover." Granted his kingdom is defunct, but it still exists in name, somehow and they even have a website dedicated to the "Kingdom of Hanover."
So while I wanted to change it for the sake of originality and integrity, I wanted to change it to something uniquely our own. I didn't want Hanover to be called "Morovia"! But if a true unification is to take place, a hyphenated name, I think, is a reasonable compromise for Hanover to make.
Yes, some will! Many will! Morovia may have had a reputation of greatness at one time but that day is passed. Morovia now enjoys the reputation of being a dead nation, no thanks to the stellar leadership of her king, or at least a mortally ill nation whose health and well being only last so long as her king is present. Morovia also has a reputation of being an arrogant, stubborn nation. It is by no means the darling of the micronational community which you pretend it is. Look at all of the people who joined Hanover who never cared to and never would join Morovia! Naw-aw. I see no benefit to Hanover in casting the mantle of Morovia's "reputation" over her shoulders.
You're damn right, I do. Holy cow. That should be clear to everyone by now. The reasons have been stated over and over again. Not that they need to be. His reputation and his track record are well known everywhere.
Please. We're talking about Hanover and Morovia, not the great schism here.
Thanks loads for the compliment, first of all. No, I don't have Vincent's long standing experience with doing nothing and failing to take responsibilities seriously. I'm just one of those crappy kings who had to earn respect through work and attention to duty.
Ceasar, Alexander, Charlemagne, Napoleon, Vincent III. Names known and beloved of school children everywhere. What respect and prestige does he command outside of his own country? He is universally regarded as absent and irresponsible. Are you kidding me???
What? Didn't you just get through reiterating that he's going to give all of his authority to the People's Representative, thus giving him nothing to do? What great political acumen does one need in order to be a powerless figurehead? And what, in a community where none of us can see each other, thus preventing wavings from balconies and garden parties, is the point of having a king who is a powerless figurehead? Again, this utterly flies in the face of what Hanover's monarchy is all about.
There you go again. I don't get it. I just don't get it. I have nothing further, Your Honor.
I urge all of you to read with your own eyes the bill before Parliament and tell me if you feel that it is fair and balanced. Those of you who are not of Morovian origin need to know exactly what's going on here. There is nothing--I repeat--nothing which is fair or balanced about this bill. If passed, Hanover will lose its name and identity entirely and become a dominion of King Vincent of Morovia. Read the bill!
And can any of you answer me once and for all why a bill which is fair and balanced cannot be drafted and proposed? What is Morovia's objection to a fair and balanced unification? What? The only honest answer I have heard thus far has come from our friend Peter Krembs, who has stated very clearly his opinion that Hanover is quite inferior to Morovia and does not deserve to be placed on equal footing with her in any way.
Disregard Mr. Krembs' comments, ladies and gentlemen. He's only one of the guys who'll be voting on this!!! Holy crap!
Majesty, you know I love you but honest to God. What are we doing here?
komoriSan
C.Braden,
Director of
Online Services
Posts: 484
(11/19/03 12:04 am)
Re: AN URGENT APPEAL
Bill,
I see where you are coming from with that request. The phrase is inflamatory where it does not need to be. I think I react that way due to the complete loss of all titles, offices, honors and awards that would accompany the merger. None the less, consider it ditched!
I recall supporting your keeping Morovia independant, but probably not for the same reasons you had. It just seemed to me that Morovia was being held in trust, if you will, for the day when his Majesty King Vincent III returned. Your persistance was proved right. If you had allowed a merge, where would that have left your king?
Regards,
Char-Lez Braden
Prime Minister
Rakesh86
R.Maziar Ackbar,
Chairman,
Royal Rights &
Responsibilities
Commission
Posts: 83
(11/19/03 12:26 am)
Re: AN URGENT APPEAL
My friends,
I belive that a better merger bill must be drafter - since the current one is lacking completely. Let us stop this petty arguing and take measures to tackle the problem.
HM King Louis
Member
Posts: 6
(11/19/03 12:26 am)
ezSupporter
Re: AN URGENT APPEAL
Let me make one thing very clear to everyone before Bill takes this any further:
There were never any conditions presented to Morovia when I offered Bill a place for that kingdom in the Morovian Commonwealth. It was a very casual discussion about giving Morovia "something to do", if you will, because he was and had been the only active citizen of Hanover for months.
There was never any active push to swallow Morovia. I proposed an eventual merger because it made sense, just as this merger makes sense. But while it's reasonable to expect a nation of one person to join a larger one and assimilate into it, it is unreasonable for a smaller nation to approach a larger, more vibrant nation and expect that greater nation to become a subsidiary of the smaller one.
I'm sure we can all see the difference, here. At any rate, the conversation (there were no negotiations) was casual and when Bill came back with "No, Vincent would kill me," we dropped it.
End of story.
Edited by: HM King Louis at: 11/19/03 12:27 am
HM King Louis
Member
Posts: 8
(11/19/03 1:14 am)
ezSupporter
Re: AN URGENT APPEAL
Mr. Rakesh:
If I could, I would bend to kiss your hand.
derSystemanalytiker
Member
Posts: 1
(11/19/03 2:58 am)
ezSupporter
Re: AN URGENT APPEAL
You know, Your Worship, every time I think you can't get any pettier or self-indulgent, you go and prove me wrong.
Your long-standing jealousy of Vincent notwithstanding, it amazes me why you're continuing to take the low road and make unsubstantiated charges against HM and my countryman Mr Bekkenhuis.
And it's funny how you've thus far managed to avoid denial of my charge that you're actually bucking for the position of Co-Regent with Vincent...
Peter Krembs, AM
Rakesh86
R.Maziar Ackbar,
Chairman,
Royal Rights &
Responsibilities
Commission
Posts: 87
(11/19/03 3:11 am)
Re: AN URGENT APPEAL
To my best knowledge I have yet to see His Majesty Duke of Marchmain position or posture himself to recieve any position in an Unified Kingdom.
komoriSan
C.Braden,
Director of
Online Services
Posts: 487
(11/19/03 3:52 am)
Re: AN URGENT APPEAL
I agree.
Bill Bekkenhuis
Member
Posts: 262
(11/19/03 4:09 pm)
Re: AN URGENT APPEAL
HM King Louis writes:
Let me make one thing very clear to everyone before Bill takes this any further:
Now that you've made it less clear rather than more, you've drawn another response.
Good show! <!--EZCODE EMOTICON START
-->
There were never any conditions presented to Morovia when I offered Bill a place for that kingdom in the Morovian Commonwealth. It was a very casual discussion about giving Morovia "something to do", if you will, because he was and had been the only active citizen of Hanover for months.
I seem to remember it being on your regal letterhead, Your Majesty, and using your royal title, so it wasn't all THAT casual, was it?
As you seem to have a much better memory of it than do I, could you please be so kind as to publish a copy of it here?
I'm afraid I lost my copy when my system crashed in June.
There was never any active push to swallow Morovia.
Hanover first brought up the subject of union, not Morovia. You contacted me, I didn't contact you.
Would you please acknowledge that truth?
I proposed an eventual merger because it made sense, just as this merger makes sense. But while it's reasonable to expect a nation of one person to join a larger one and assimilate into it, it is unreasonable for a smaller nation to approach a larger, more vibrant nation and expect that greater nation to become a subsidiary of the smaller one.
Okay. So, no "conditions" and you weren't proposing Hanover "swallow" Morovia.
But you apparently (per your own statement above) were expecting Morovia to "join" Hanover and become a "subsidiary" of it.
You make a distinction without a difference, Your Majesty, beyond your apparent belief that it was appropriate for Morovia to join Hanover and become a subsidiary of it, while Hanover's acceptance of the Union agreement would be, in effect, giving Hanover to Vincent as a gift.
I guess that means you expected me, as Lord Regent, to present Morovia to King James I as a gift.
Right?
I'm sure we can all see the difference, here. At any rate, the conversation (there were no negotiations) was casual and when Bill came back with "No, Vincent would kill me," we dropped it.
I said, in a polite, respectful way, words to the effect of, "no thank you, Your Majesty".
And I presume that someone from Hanover's government will eventually communicate the same to HM King Vincent III in the same polite, respectful way without denigrating his performance of his royal duties, even if you are personally incapable of doing so.
End of story.
Indeed.
Please publish both your original note inviting me to make Morovia a gift to you (as you put it), Your Majesty, as well as my response.
I think both our nations deserve to know how we handled their trust and just where this whole discussion began, don't you?
Hanover attempted to incorporate with Morovia and, with a lot less fireworks and personal polemic than you've generated, Morovia said "no thank you, not at this time."
Again, Haover's [ed. Hanover's] reciprocal courtesy and best wishes are all Mmorovia [ed. Morovia] has a right to expect from Hanover in return - and I think the governments of both nations know that, even if you do not.
Regards,
Bill Bekkenhuis
Citizen of Hanover and Morovia
bekkenhuis@fast.net
Edited by: Bill Bekkenhuis at: 11/19/03 6:17 pm
Bill Bekkenhuis
Member
Posts: 263
(11/19/03 4:24 pm)
Re: AN URGENT APPEAL
I recall supporting your keeping Morovia independant, but probably not for the same reasons you had. It just seemed to me that Morovia was being held in trust, if you will, for the day when his Majesty King Vincent III returned. Your persistance was proved right. If you had allowed a merge, where would that have left your king?
Unemployed.
And a bit put out with his regent, I suspect <!--EZCODE EMOTICON START -->
Regards,
Bill Bekkenhuis
bekkenhuis@fast.net
komoriSan
C.Braden,
Director of
Online Services
Posts: 492
(11/19/03 6:43 pm)
Re: AN URGENT APPEAL
Bill
EXACTLY. Thus I think you made the right decision. Time has PROVED you were correct.
Regards,
Char-Lez Braden
Prime Minister
Member
Posts: 3
(11/17/03 11:49 pm)
AN URGENT APPEAL
[color=navy;font-family:courier;font-size:small;]His Grace[/color],
[color=navy;font-family:courier;font-size:medium;]The Duke of Marchmain[/color]
[color=navy;font-family:courier;font-size:x-small;]King-Emeritus of Hanover[/color]
[color=black;font-family:courier;font-size:x-small;]Beloved friends and fellow Hanoverians:
As all of you know, the Parliament of Hanover is currently voting on whether or not to present the Kingdom of Hanover as a gift to King Vincent III of Morovia.
I have been asked to lend my support to a merger between Hanover and Morovia, a goal which I hoped to achieve during my own reign. I do support a union between these two venerable nations but in a way which makes sense.
My dear, dear friends! This is not the way to go about this enterprise. Are you really willing to minimize everything that Hanover is and can be, reducing it to a mere gift to present to an irresponsible foreign ruler? Come now.
I do support this union, Your Majesty. I do support this union, dear friends. But there is a much, much more sensible and honourable way for this nation to go about it and I beg you to hear me out before you make a decision.
Any of you who have not visited and participated in the thread regarding this merger at Micronations.net ought to do so (see link in Ellicott Square topics). A very reasonable and exciting solution to this matter has arisen, and I hope that you will give it your consideration before simply giving your nation away.
This obvious and intriguing solution calls for a dual-monarchy presiding over a new kingdom with a hyphenated name reflecting both Hanover and Morovia. The Kingdom of "Morovia-Hanover" would have two co-equal kings, Vincent III of Morovia and a qualified (non-Morovian) Hanoverian king.
Such a scenario, of course, has historical macronational precedence, having been seen during the reigns of Ferdinand and Isabella in Spain and William and Mary in Great Britain. The fact that those monarchs married was accidental and no one is proposing a "marriage" between the two monarchs (unless that's what they want, of course <!--EZCODE EMOTICON START
--> ).This solution will allay any fears about Vincent III simply vanishing again, allowing the other King to continue governing regardless of Vincent's presence or absence. Should Vincent agree to such a compromise, it will also show that he is truly committed to creating a great nation and that he has not just returned to satisfy a transitory personal whim to be "the king" again.
My dear, dear friends, although I have departed Hanover's throne I continue to love Hanover and all that she has come to stand for. I also continue to love Morovia and all that she has stood for in her better years. If I did not love our country I would not take the time to appeal to you in this way. "I could not love thee half so well. Love thee not honor more?"
A merger, yes. Yes, by all means, Your Majesty. A union between these two great nations, yes, dear members of Parliament! But a unification which makes sense, carried out in an honorable fashion, one in which the members of both nations can be proud.
Your Majesty, I hope you will forgive me, but the way in which this merger is being designed is beyond unpalatable. Perhaps even if Mr. Krembs had been muzzled, I could have held back. His unpardonably arrogant remarks about Hanover, however, reveal to me the true spirit behind Morovia's desire for this merger: "Morovia above all, and a blue-eyed Jesus! Morovia first and the rest get the pieces!" (with apologies to Moxy Fruvous for the paraphrased lyrics). In the face of that attitude revealed for all to see, I cannot maintain my silence. Again I hope you will forgive me and see my efforts, at least, in finding a way in which I can support the merger which you hope to accomplish, as I, myself, had hoped to long ago.
I have discovered a way in which I can support this merger rather than lament it. I offer my support to the merger, as you have asked me to, if the merger is executed in a just way. Have mercy upon this nation, My lord. Do not offer her merely as a gift to one who does not deserve her. Make this unification happen, but make it happen right. I appeal to you at the foot of your throne, make it happen right.
Louis,
Duke of Marchmain[/color]
Edited by: Duke of Marchmain at: 11/18/03 1:08 am
HM King Thomas I
Posts: 763
(11/18/03 5:37 pm)
Re: AN URGENT APPEAL
My Dear Duke,
Before we begin any discussion, I ask you to disregard the comments of Mr Krembs. They are irrelevant, as far as we should be concerned, since Mr Krembs' only involvement in this affair will be to vote on it in Morovia's Royal Assembly. I assure you, my lord, that Hanover has her own equivalents.
Now, that out of the way, I have a question for you. What is it that makes the union, as proposed to Parliament, so distasteful to you? If you review the content of the Bill, you will note that in fact, it does not at all subjugate or belittle Hanover. The Bill is designed to create a new, merged and unified Kingdom from both Morovia and Hanover.
In addition to which, Hanover will maintain the integrity of her borders, and her laws will continue to apply within those borders. Hanoverian nobles will still be nobles in Hanover. When size permits, Hanover will have a Parliament, and will, in fact, be to all intents and purposes as she now is. Until size does permit, a Hanoverian administrator will rule the Hanoverian territory, as I now do.
Perhaps you find the idea that the supreme law of the new, unified state will be the People's Constitution of Morovia unpalatable? That is a document and a law which has worked admirably in every way, except one - and every Morovian, including King Vincent, is ready to amend that. Whereas in Hanover, with merger or without we will have a new Constitution. Why not take up one which has served a nation for many years, with the necessary change, which will be made within the week?
Perhaps, you find distasteful the idea that the Kingdom will be named Morovia? It was Your Grace yoursef who lobbied your own Council to change Hanover's name, and none will deny that the name of Morovia is held in esteem throughout the micronational community. Surely, then, Hanover has the benefit of taking on that esteem, and loses nothing?
And finally, you may dislike the proposal that King Vincent rule the new union. Well, let's look at the whole list of candidates for rule - bearing in mind that wherever history has witnessed two or more male monarchs rule side by side, their state has crumbled into civil war, and also that comparison can hardly be made with partnerships of male and female, since in every case, the environment of the situation will make the male the supreme authority:
There is firstly myself. Without wishing to be too self-deprecating, I am hardly well qualified as a national leader. In the two cases where I have enjoyed that honour previously, I presided over the fall of Seventh Audentior, for which I accept substantial responsibility, and over the destruction of Freenesia by enemy attack. Not a good record. In Hanover, I hope to make my rule count, by making my kingdom part of a grand new venture of partnership.
Then there is the Marchmain family. I have no particular wish to try to savage either Your Grace or His Royal Highness Prince Justin, but neither of you have a reserve for monarchy like King Vincent's.
He has made mistakes, and he has been absent (who would begrudge him leaving Morovia a while to support the Democratic Party's efforts to oppose George W?), but he has pledged - and I believe him - to rectify them. With the new revisions to the Constitution in Morovia, Vincent's best traits will be enhanced through his role, his worst ones made irrelevant.
The respect and prestige he commands throughout the community will make him an ideal figurehead of our community - he compares, in this respect, with the most legendary leaders of our regions history - and his political skill, honed in the macronational arena, will lend stability and strong guidance to Morovia's government. His tendency towards absnece in recent months, on the other hand, though he has pledged to refrain from it, will never again be a crippling blow to Morovia - nor would they be to the new union - when the proposed reforms are made.
Vincent is the best King for our community. There are many great leaders among us - from Morovia's Lord regent-emeritus Bill Bekkenhuis to Hanover's esteemed Prime Minister Lord Gottingen, and yourself also, Your Grace - who can lead our new union, should it come about, to glory from the political front line, but it's a man like Vincent who will be a great king.
In summation, it is my firm belief that, having addressed all your potential qualms that I can see, the new union of Morovia and Hanover will benefit my loyal subjects of Hanover. Indeed, they could easily come to form a majority among the voters of the union. Hanover will not be merely a province of a Morovian 'empire', but an integral and powerful section of a grand union of nations.
C.Braden,
Director of
Online Services
Posts: 481
(11/18/03 7:10 pm)
Re: AN URGENT APPEAL
Your Majesty King Thomas I,
King Louis,
Fellow Hanoverians,
Guests of Hanover,
My opposition to any merger is founded on two simple principles:
1) I'm Hanoverian. I have never been Morovian. I see no benefit to be becoming Morovian (at least at the moment). I do not wish to hold any back that feel they would do better in Morovia. But your immigrating to Morovia does not require the death of Hanover.
2) His Majesty King Vincent III has a track record of unreliablity. Even he admits the weakness. Maybe he does have more commitment this time. I say let Hanover use caution with a wait and see approach.
There should be no sense of urgency to this whole proceeding. I don't understand the rush to unificiation. We can always pass Articles of Unification, but unpassing them is very difficult.
King Thomas points out that his Majesty King Vincent III left for macronational issues. Issues I'm sorry to report are unfinished. In less than a year the election for the US Presidency will start again. Will his Majesty King Vincent III be unable to resist the calling of macronational politics yet again?
I immigrated to Hanover because I liked what I saw. I stayed when his Majesty King James I abdicated because I believed in the potential. For me the vision and life is here, in Hanover.
Don't believe me?
On 2003-NOV-12 his Majesty King Vincent III posted his now famous "Friends, I have returned." message. From that time on, this has been the traffic that I could measure in the Salon. I interpret the number of posts to be a measure of the vitality of the nation.
Aderyn Evereste 1 **
Bill Bekkenhuis 7 *
komoriSan 1 *
Lord Williams 1 *
His Majesty King Vincent III 3
Rakesh86 1 *
Frederick Giles 2
Tahmaseb Shah 1 **
HIH Noseworthy 1 **
derSystemanalytiker 6
His Majesty King Thomas I 3 *
Robert LS Kee 1
SteveFoong 2 *
Knight Magistrate 1 *
The posters with the * are those with Hanoverian citizenship, they total 6, 7 if we count Aderyn (but I won't). The posters with ** are neither Hanoverian nor Morovian, they total 3. Morovians total 3 pure morovians, 6 multinationals, 7 if you again count Aderyn (right?).
The numerical analysis points out the plain fact of the matter. Their are more involved Hanoverians than Morovians.
If you total the posts by citizenship and you get this:
Hanover 10
Morovia 12
Other 3
Its plain to see that His Majesty King Vincent III is inspiring, at least for the moment. But it's also plain to see that if those that are Hanoverian were putting nearly as much energy into Hanover as they are into Morovia then Morovia would still look like a ghost town by comparison.
I have maintained all along that if you feel Morovia is a better place for you, then please immigrate and don't worry about it, you'll still be welcome in Hanover as far as I'm concerned.
But what I don't understand is the move to just drop everything and go bow at the thrown of Morovia. I'm not going to do it.
I'm staying in Hanover as long as there is a Hanover to stay in.
Regards,
Char-Lez Braden
Citizen
D.Dreesbach,
Citizen
Posts: 163
(11/18/03 8:34 pm)
Re: AN URGENT APPEAL
If the merger is to go why is it that Hannover will lose its independence and its king. Why cant we set it up similiar to the EU
Minister of State
Posts: 423
(11/18/03 8:56 pm)
Re: AN URGENT APPEAL
The thing I treasure the most about micronationalism is that it is all a matter of choice. I did not choose my macronationality. I was born into a race and into a country, jus soli. Micronationality, however, can neither be imposed nor disliked. I cannot say that I hate to be a Morovian or that I hate to be a Hanoverian. I also cannot claim to be forced into these two micronations. I chose to. I can simply go off and never to visit these two micronations' ezboard forever. But I chose to.
Therefore, no one can force a person to be a Morovian or a Hanoverian. One can oppose but one need not resist. If a merger is successful and one doesn't like the merger, he can simply leave it to rot. If a merger is unsuccessful and one doesn't like a merger, he can simply ignore it. There's really nothing more to it.
Of course, there's this thing called emotion. The Duke of Marchmain may say, "I crafted Hanover with my bare hands. Killing it? Over my dead body!" Of course we're not talking about culling Hanover. Perhaps he may say, "But I, being its creator, love Hanover way too much to see it being made part of a nation I consider gold-gilded and headed by a King I utterly despise". Another may say, "I was never a Morovian and have no love for it. I'm a Hanoverian - thoroughbred!" Emotion is real and must be acknowledged.
Therefore, there is no way one can really conspire to merge with another micronation without the members of both micronations agreeing. And, in the context of micronationalism, there's simply no reason to merge with a micronation's structure without its citizens.
Hence, may I suggest that there's really no need for an urgent appeal, or a "Save Hanover Campaign". If no citizen of Hanover wants to be a Morovian, Morovia will gain nothing and will have to live with it. Even if it finally wins over "The Kingdom of Hanover", without it citizens, it still achieved nothing. There's simply no compelling in micronationalism.
I know emotions are high at this moment but we should calm down somewhat and let due process take its course. For Morovia and Hanover were never enemies and should not be. The intention of a merger is not to create hostility. Hostile takeover in micronationalism does not exist, except in the event of mass paplism. No, dear friends, there's no compelling in micronationalism.
I, personally and honestly, do not see a big hoo-hah about this whole issue. Let things happen in both legislatures and see how it goes.
Member
Posts: 2
(11/18/03 10:24 pm)
Re: AN URGENT APPEAL
KINGDOM OF MOROVIA
HIS MAJESTY, KING VINCENT III
THE WINTER PALACE, BRIESK
HIS MAJESTY'S CHAMBERS
Steve,
I could not agree with your sentiments more. While the position of my Government has been said to be otherwise, I will once again express our utmost desire to respect the wishes of the Hanoverian and Morovian peoples.
Warm wishes to you all,
HM King Vincent III
C.Braden,
Director of
Online Services
Posts: 483
(11/18/03 11:11 pm)
Re: AN URGENT APPEAL
Your Majesty,
This is akin to a state visit! As a representative of his Majesty's government, WELCOME! I believe I speak for his Majesty when I say that you are always invited to grace us with your presence.
Thanks for taking the time to comment on the issue.
My views on this subject are well known. I don't intend to debate them here. Rather, I hope to address something else which you may have also noticed.
I feel an US-vs-THEM atmosphere forming. Hanover and Morovia have been traditional allies from the moment Hanover was created, by a group of Morovians!
Worse, the US-vs-THEM phenomena is extending beyond the two nations. Folks in Pendronia, Lavalon, Babkha and I suspect other nations as well, are all a buzz watching the process, and choosing sides. The process is starting to get personal. People have attacked each other, and not kept themselves to a civilized tone of discussing the idea.
Whatever the fate of Hanover, I don't want to give the impression that our Morovian friends are not welcome. I would also hope that, if the unification is rejected, that no bitterness is felt on the Morovian side.
While we may not agree on the merge, we can agree to continue civilized and friendly interactions. After all, during the course of any relationship disagreements are bound to happen, and the test of that bond is how they come through it.
I do not know any in Hanover that wish to see their personal relationships with any in Morovia damaged because we could not agree on this one issue.
Regards,
Char-Lez Braden
Prime Minister
Edited by: komoriSan at: 11/18/03 11:24 pm
Member
Posts: 261
(11/18/03 11:32 pm)
Re: AN URGENT APPEAL
But what I don't understand is the move to just drop everything and go bow at the thrown of Morovia. I'm not going to do it.
Most if not all Morovians understand Hanover's pride in its accomplishments and would certainly understand if you desired to remain independent.
I wish, though, the "bowing at the throne" phrase could be ditched.
On more than one occasion, the Crown of Hanover approached me in my capacity as Lord Regent of Morovia and offered the possibility of a union between our two nations.
If there were any specifics of those offers that differed from what's on the table now (other than the direction of the union), I don't recall them.
It was understood (at least by me) that Morovia would become a province of Hanover.
I did not think that was a good deal for Morovia, as many of you don't believe this is a good deal for Hanover. More significantly, I did not see the decision as one that had to be made immediately as I had every expectation HM King Vincent III would return.
It certainly would not have gained ME, personally, anything as I was already a Hanoverian citizen - almost from the very beginning.
So all I'd suggest is that Morovia didn't understand itself as being asked to bow down before the throne of Hanover when the matter was first discussed.
And, unless one believes Morovia WAS being asked to bow down and I was just too dumb to know it, then Hanover should not take offense at an offer from Morovia so similar to the offer HANOVER first made to Morovia.
I'm all talked out on this matter (and THAT doesn't happen often :-), so I will wait - in my parallel interests as a Morovian and a Hanoverian - for the outcome of Hanover's parliamentary decision.
Regards,
Bill Bekkenhuis
bekkenhuis@fast.net
HM King Louis Member
Posts: 5
(11/18/03 11:35 pm)
ezSupporter
Re: AN URGENT APPEAL
Your Majesty, King Thomas:
I have emailed you the totality of my thoughts regarding this matter and I hope that you will take my message to heart. I will permit myself to respond to your post, however.
Quote:
My Dear Duke
Not to sound petty at all, but we have always insisted upon correctness in this nation and usage of the proper forms of address and respect to one another. Just as a former president is addressed as "Mr. President" throughout his life, a fomer king or queen is addressed as "Your Majesty," particularly if that former monarch continues to be king or queen of another nation. Let us hold fast to our tradition of propriety.
Quote:
What is it that makes the union, as proposed to Parliament, so distasteful to you?
Oh, my God! Where do I begin?
What I find distasteful about the bill, Your Majesty, should be plainly obvious by now. The bill, regardless of what you have said, entirely subjugates Hanover and makes her a mere subsidiary dependency of Morovia. Hanover's monarchy vanishes. Hanover's name vanishes. Hanover's identity vanishes. The entire substance of Hanover is swallowed by the Kingdom of Morovia.
There is nothing fair in this bill at all. Hanover is treated as if it were she who had languished dead these past 12 months and as if it were Morovia who were coming to her rescue, to save her from oblivion. Everyone in the micronational world knows that the exact opposite is true! The absurdity of the backwardness of this bill is glaring. How can her King stomach such an insulting arrangement, much less endorse and actively promote it?
If this bill were fair, it would be turned inside-out to reflect the reality of the situation. That would be the truly just thing to do in light of everything. Even the compromise which I have proposed isn't strictly speaking fair to Hanover as it treats Morovia as a deserving co-equal partner, whereas it is a chonically ill nation and Hanover a thriving one (or at least it had been prior to so many citizens not originally from Morovia throwing their hands in the air in disgust and walking away). Therefore not even a treaty making both nations equal would be fair to Hanover, in the strict sense. But such a bill, at least, would be a reasonable compromise for Hanover to make.
Quote:
Perhaps you find the idea that the supreme law of the new, unified state will be the People's Constitution of Morovia unpalatable? That is a document and a law which has worked admirably in every way, except one - and every Morovian, including King Vincent, is ready to amend that.
Yes, it is unpalatable to me. That constitution was a monstrosity which always caused more problems than it solved. I can't believe how short-lived your memory appears to be on this. Vincent's proposed solution: transfer all executive authority to the People's Rep. Great. Marvelous. In that case why even have a king? His solution is to constitutionally cement his right to do absolutely nothing and still be king.
That was never the type of monarchy we had in Hanover, my Lord. We have always had an active king who performed his duties and then some, regardless of what you think about my talents as a king and my ability to serve as one. I never disappeared for months at a time. I never had a communication problem with my ministers or with parliament. I never refused to answer your emails. I even chatted with my people!
Quote:
Perhaps, you find distasteful the idea that the Kingdom will be named Morovia? It was Your Grace yoursef who lobbied your own Council to change Hanover's name
Well, yup. Quite definitely I find that distasteful. It should be called by its own name or at least by a hyphenated name. I even suggested that Morovia's be placed first by way of placating them. Indeed, it is true I was for a long time uncomfortable with Hanover's name, and that, as you know, is because there exists a man in this world--a very wealthy and powerful man--who already lays claim to the title "King of Hanover." Granted his kingdom is defunct, but it still exists in name, somehow and they even have a website dedicated to the "Kingdom of Hanover."
So while I wanted to change it for the sake of originality and integrity, I wanted to change it to something uniquely our own. I didn't want Hanover to be called "Morovia"! But if a true unification is to take place, a hyphenated name, I think, is a reasonable compromise for Hanover to make.
Quote:
...and none will deny that the name of Morovia is held in esteem throughout the micronational community.
Yes, some will! Many will! Morovia may have had a reputation of greatness at one time but that day is passed. Morovia now enjoys the reputation of being a dead nation, no thanks to the stellar leadership of her king, or at least a mortally ill nation whose health and well being only last so long as her king is present. Morovia also has a reputation of being an arrogant, stubborn nation. It is by no means the darling of the micronational community which you pretend it is. Look at all of the people who joined Hanover who never cared to and never would join Morovia! Naw-aw. I see no benefit to Hanover in casting the mantle of Morovia's "reputation" over her shoulders.
Quote:
And finally, you may dislike the proposal that King Vincent rule the new union.
You're damn right, I do. Holy cow. That should be clear to everyone by now. The reasons have been stated over and over again. Not that they need to be. His reputation and his track record are well known everywhere.
Quote:
...bearing in mind that wherever history has witnessed two or more male monarchs rule side by side, their state has crumbled into civil war
Please. We're talking about Hanover and Morovia, not the great schism here.
Quote:
Then there is the Marchmain family. I have no particular wish to try to savage either Your Grace or His Royal Highness Prince Justin, but neither of you have a reserve for monarchy like King Vincent's.
Thanks loads for the compliment, first of all. No, I don't have Vincent's long standing experience with doing nothing and failing to take responsibilities seriously. I'm just one of those crappy kings who had to earn respect through work and attention to duty.
Quote:
The respect and prestige he commands throughout the community will make him an ideal figurehead of our community - he compares, in this respect, with the most legendary leaders of our regions history
Ceasar, Alexander, Charlemagne, Napoleon, Vincent III. Names known and beloved of school children everywhere. What respect and prestige does he command outside of his own country? He is universally regarded as absent and irresponsible. Are you kidding me???
Quote:
...and his political skill, honed in the macronational arena, will lend stability and strong guidance to Morovia's government.
What? Didn't you just get through reiterating that he's going to give all of his authority to the People's Representative, thus giving him nothing to do? What great political acumen does one need in order to be a powerless figurehead? And what, in a community where none of us can see each other, thus preventing wavings from balconies and garden parties, is the point of having a king who is a powerless figurehead? Again, this utterly flies in the face of what Hanover's monarchy is all about.
Quote:
...but it's a man like Vincent who will be a great king.
There you go again. I don't get it. I just don't get it. I have nothing further, Your Honor.
I urge all of you to read with your own eyes the bill before Parliament and tell me if you feel that it is fair and balanced. Those of you who are not of Morovian origin need to know exactly what's going on here. There is nothing--I repeat--nothing which is fair or balanced about this bill. If passed, Hanover will lose its name and identity entirely and become a dominion of King Vincent of Morovia. Read the bill!
And can any of you answer me once and for all why a bill which is fair and balanced cannot be drafted and proposed? What is Morovia's objection to a fair and balanced unification? What? The only honest answer I have heard thus far has come from our friend Peter Krembs, who has stated very clearly his opinion that Hanover is quite inferior to Morovia and does not deserve to be placed on equal footing with her in any way.
Quote:
Before we begin any discussion, I ask you to disregard the comments of Mr Krembs. They are irrelevant, as far as we should be concerned, since Mr Krembs' only involvement in this affair will be to vote on it in Morovia's Royal Assembly.
Disregard Mr. Krembs' comments, ladies and gentlemen. He's only one of the guys who'll be voting on this!!! Holy crap!
Majesty, you know I love you but honest to God. What are we doing here?
C.Braden,
Director of
Online Services
Posts: 484
(11/19/03 12:04 am)
Re: AN URGENT APPEAL
Bill,
Quote:
I wish, though, the "bowing at the throne" phrase could be ditched.
I see where you are coming from with that request. The phrase is inflamatory where it does not need to be. I think I react that way due to the complete loss of all titles, offices, honors and awards that would accompany the merger. None the less, consider it ditched!
I recall supporting your keeping Morovia independant, but probably not for the same reasons you had. It just seemed to me that Morovia was being held in trust, if you will, for the day when his Majesty King Vincent III returned. Your persistance was proved right. If you had allowed a merge, where would that have left your king?
Regards,
Char-Lez Braden
Prime Minister
R.Maziar Ackbar,
Chairman,
Royal Rights &
Responsibilities
Commission
Posts: 83
(11/19/03 12:26 am)
Re: AN URGENT APPEAL
My friends,
I belive that a better merger bill must be drafter - since the current one is lacking completely. Let us stop this petty arguing and take measures to tackle the problem.
HM King Louis Member
Posts: 6
(11/19/03 12:26 am)
ezSupporter
Re: AN URGENT APPEAL
Let me make one thing very clear to everyone before Bill takes this any further:
There were never any conditions presented to Morovia when I offered Bill a place for that kingdom in the Morovian Commonwealth. It was a very casual discussion about giving Morovia "something to do", if you will, because he was and had been the only active citizen of Hanover for months.
There was never any active push to swallow Morovia. I proposed an eventual merger because it made sense, just as this merger makes sense. But while it's reasonable to expect a nation of one person to join a larger one and assimilate into it, it is unreasonable for a smaller nation to approach a larger, more vibrant nation and expect that greater nation to become a subsidiary of the smaller one.
I'm sure we can all see the difference, here. At any rate, the conversation (there were no negotiations) was casual and when Bill came back with "No, Vincent would kill me," we dropped it.
End of story.
Edited by: HM King Louis
at: 11/19/03 12:27 am HM King Louis Member
Posts: 8
(11/19/03 1:14 am)
ezSupporter
Re: AN URGENT APPEAL
Mr. Rakesh:
If I could, I would bend to kiss your hand.
derSystemanalytikerMember
Posts: 1
(11/19/03 2:58 am)
ezSupporter
Re: AN URGENT APPEAL
Quote:
Thanks loads for the compliment, first of all. No, I don't have Vincent's long standing experience with doing nothing and failing to take responsibilities seriously. I'm just one of those crappy kings who had to earn respect through work and attention to duty.
You know, Your Worship, every time I think you can't get any pettier or self-indulgent, you go and prove me wrong.
Your long-standing jealousy of Vincent notwithstanding, it amazes me why you're continuing to take the low road and make unsubstantiated charges against HM and my countryman Mr Bekkenhuis.
And it's funny how you've thus far managed to avoid denial of my charge that you're actually bucking for the position of Co-Regent with Vincent...
Peter Krembs, AM
R.Maziar Ackbar,
Chairman,
Royal Rights &
Responsibilities
Commission
Posts: 87
(11/19/03 3:11 am)
Re: AN URGENT APPEAL
To my best knowledge I have yet to see His Majesty Duke of Marchmain position or posture himself to recieve any position in an Unified Kingdom.
C.Braden,
Director of
Online Services
Posts: 487
(11/19/03 3:52 am)
Re: AN URGENT APPEAL
Quote:
To my best knowledge I have yet to see His Majesty Duke of Marchmain position or posture himself to recieve any position in an Unified Kingdom.
I agree.
Member
Posts: 262
(11/19/03 4:09 pm)
Re: AN URGENT APPEAL
HM King Louis writes:
Let me make one thing very clear to everyone before Bill takes this any further:
Now that you've made it less clear rather than more, you've drawn another response.
Good show! <!--EZCODE EMOTICON START
--> There were never any conditions presented to Morovia when I offered Bill a place for that kingdom in the Morovian Commonwealth. It was a very casual discussion about giving Morovia "something to do", if you will, because he was and had been the only active citizen of Hanover for months.
I seem to remember it being on your regal letterhead, Your Majesty, and using your royal title, so it wasn't all THAT casual, was it?
As you seem to have a much better memory of it than do I, could you please be so kind as to publish a copy of it here?
I'm afraid I lost my copy when my system crashed in June.
There was never any active push to swallow Morovia.
Hanover first brought up the subject of union, not Morovia. You contacted me, I didn't contact you.
Would you please acknowledge that truth?
I proposed an eventual merger because it made sense, just as this merger makes sense. But while it's reasonable to expect a nation of one person to join a larger one and assimilate into it, it is unreasonable for a smaller nation to approach a larger, more vibrant nation and expect that greater nation to become a subsidiary of the smaller one.
Okay. So, no "conditions" and you weren't proposing Hanover "swallow" Morovia.
But you apparently (per your own statement above) were expecting Morovia to "join" Hanover and become a "subsidiary" of it.
You make a distinction without a difference, Your Majesty, beyond your apparent belief that it was appropriate for Morovia to join Hanover and become a subsidiary of it, while Hanover's acceptance of the Union agreement would be, in effect, giving Hanover to Vincent as a gift.
I guess that means you expected me, as Lord Regent, to present Morovia to King James I as a gift.
Right?
I'm sure we can all see the difference, here. At any rate, the conversation (there were no negotiations) was casual and when Bill came back with "No, Vincent would kill me," we dropped it.
I said, in a polite, respectful way, words to the effect of, "no thank you, Your Majesty".
And I presume that someone from Hanover's government will eventually communicate the same to HM King Vincent III in the same polite, respectful way without denigrating his performance of his royal duties, even if you are personally incapable of doing so.
End of story.
Indeed.
Please publish both your original note inviting me to make Morovia a gift to you (as you put it), Your Majesty, as well as my response.
I think both our nations deserve to know how we handled their trust and just where this whole discussion began, don't you?
Hanover attempted to incorporate with Morovia and, with a lot less fireworks and personal polemic than you've generated, Morovia said "no thank you, not at this time."
Again, Haover's [ed. Hanover's] reciprocal courtesy and best wishes are all Mmorovia [ed. Morovia] has a right to expect from Hanover in return - and I think the governments of both nations know that, even if you do not.
Regards,
Bill Bekkenhuis
Citizen of Hanover and Morovia
bekkenhuis@fast.net
Edited by: Bill Bekkenhuis at: 11/19/03 6:17 pm
Member
Posts: 263
(11/19/03 4:24 pm)
Re: AN URGENT APPEAL
I recall supporting your keeping Morovia independant, but probably not for the same reasons you had. It just seemed to me that Morovia was being held in trust, if you will, for the day when his Majesty King Vincent III returned. Your persistance was proved right. If you had allowed a merge, where would that have left your king?
Unemployed.
And a bit put out with his regent, I suspect <!--EZCODE EMOTICON START
--> Regards,
Bill Bekkenhuis
bekkenhuis@fast.net
C.Braden,
Director of
Online Services
Posts: 492
(11/19/03 6:43 pm)
Re: AN URGENT APPEAL
Bill
Quote:
Unemployed.
EXACTLY. Thus I think you made the right decision. Time has PROVED you were correct.
Regards,
Char-Lez Braden
Prime Minister